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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCity Council Committees - Public Safety (Committee) - 03/05/1990 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE ATU MARCH 5, 1990 APR "1 1990 Lo CITY OF KENT CITY CI rn- PRESENT: Paul Mann, Chair Jim Miller Leona Orr Dennis Byerly Steve Dowell Dave Everett Sandra Driscoll Marty Nizlek Alana McIalwain Kelli Rogers Norm Angelo Mr. Jack Boughton Mr. James W. Dunn Mr. Walter Susan UPDATE ON HIRING PROCESS FOR CODE ENFORCEMENT Chief Angelo indicated that they went out and did an assessment center for two inspectors with the hopes of being able to promote from within for the plans checker position that was approved in the budget. As soon as that was done, Federal Way came in and hired away the plans checker. They went through the inspection list and the couple of people that they had were either offered more money or better conditions were they were currently at in order to get them to stay. Since that time, the number of requests for permits are continuing at the same rate as last year and has not slowed down. They are close to 43 million now in the second month. Last year was at about 170 million. Angelo indicated ,that the permits are coming fast and heavy and the Public Works Department is seeing where they're not able to get sufficient engineers and engineering supervisors to handle the workload and the Fire Department is encountering the same thing. Planning is seeing similar turnover and new people. Angelo indicated that they are working with Personnel to do a new assessment center to get some more inspector and plans checker candidates. Angelo indicated that the County is also seeing difficulty recruiting and Seattle is now taking four to six months to issue a single family housing permit, so everything is beginning to back up. With people being hired away and then the hiring new people and trying to get them on board, the net result is that the target dates are being extended. Angelo also reminded the Committee that as he had told them back in June and at budget time, this is something that is happening due to the workload was happening. People are getting burned out because of the amount of time they have to work. Angelo indicated they are taking some innovative steps in trying to help knock out some of it until they can hire somebody for plans checking. Angelo indicated that what they were asking for is that Committee and the rest of the Council be aware that it is a symptom of the region and the times, and that indeed, there are still personnel out there that are working very hard to deliver good work, but they are being asked to do it with less people or newer people and with just as much, if not more workload to go with it. Angelo indicated that something they are very proud of is their role, along with Planning 1 • T MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 and Engineering, in that permit process. They also know that in all human possibility that there is only so much they're going to be able to do to meet those time frames. They are working hard and will continue to try to recover some people, but even if they would have hired them yesterday, to get them on board and up to speed is going to take time. Angelo indicated that at the next meeting, or a future meeting, he will be bringing back for review and possible action the sprinkler ordinance. ' Also, he will be bringing an informational item on an update of EMS funding. Each year they receive an addendum to the six year contract that basically quotes back to them the amount of money they are being authorized from King County EMS that year. This is the formal paperwork from King County that specifies the amount and makes it official. Angelo advised on Saturday, April 7th is the dedication on Station 71. Angelo indicated that they would get out additional information and invitations, but wanted to mention it so that people could start planning their calendars. Dowell asked what the backup time was - on single family. Angelo indicated that he couldn't give a figure on single family, but that commercial development was backed up four weeks and now going into five. Angelo indicated that all they can do is give them the first available date. Dowell asked if they're going about five weeks on commercial, was it about the same on residential/single family residences. Angelo indicated that he would have to go back and to see where they are, but indicated that in general, residentials move somewhat faster. Angelo indicated that an example related to this is in Bellingham where their system was totally overloaded. They processed 40 million dollars in new construction with only seven building inspectors. Angelo indicated that last year, Kent did it with only four building inspectors and 175 million. Angelo again indicated they're doing a large volume and there' s slot of pressure out there for growth, and right now there' s alot of competition for qualified people. TRAFFIC CONCERNS ON 94TH AVENUE SOUTH Paul Mann welcomed Mr. Jim Dunn, 24015 94th Avenue South in Kent, to the meeting. Mr. Dunn indicated that there is a problem with the speed of traffic on 94th Avenue South, stating that he moved into that area in 1963, when James Street was dirt road and he has seen the traffic steadily increase since. To lend credibility to what was being said, Dunn indicated that he is a retired civil engineer, having spent 32 years with the Washington Department of Highways as a design engineer and worked traffic, retired as a system location engineer in Seattle, was also assistant design engineer in District 7 , the Metro District. Dunn indicated that 2 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 his last project was as an engineer for Beaverton Urban Renewal Agency in Beaverton, Oregon. Dunn indicated that he had also brought Walt Susan, who lives at the southwest corner of 94th and James and Jack Boughton, who lives next door to Dunn on the north. Dunn indicated that it's his professional judgement that the average speed on 94th Avenue South last summer and up until the bad weather hit, is in excess of 40 miles per hour and it's posted at 25. Dunn indicated that they had three motorcycle policeman up there either Thursday or Friday of last week and they did a great job. The speed is down the last two or three days to about 35. Dunn indicated that it's well posted with the same signs that County put up when he first moved there. Dunn indicated that there are four schools that are being served on that street from kids trying to walk to the high school, the junior high school at the bottom of hill, East Hill Elementary and the school in the Episcopal Church. The kids from the neighborhood that want to walk, but are afraid to and their parents drive them. There are also three churches and people don't walk to church, they drive. Dunn indicated that he drives and he only lives two blocks from church. To accentuate his concerns, Dunn indicated back when Dave McQuery was police chief, he had two cars sitting in his driveway that were totalled, out of six large birch trees that were originally planted, he has four left, and a rockery was taken out. Dunn indicated that he tried to do something himself to help reduce the speed just by pointing to the traffic sign and he had his front window shot out twice and his insurance company refused his insurance renewal because they didn't want to replace the glass. Dunn said that they sold in 1977 because they didn't like it there any more, but has since had to repossess the house and now he's back and faced with the same problem that he left with. Dunn indicated he had asked for a map of the area to be brought to the meeting so they could look at it and really describe the physical problems. Marty Nizlek indicated that he had said he would bring the map, but didn't and apologized. Dunn indicated the problem is essentially that James Street is 35 miles per hour being driven much faster than that, the Kent Kangley is 40 miles per hour and 248th is 35 miles per hour, so they're right in the heart of an area that is a higher speed limit zone and 94th is the only street that's really safe to drive that fast. Dunn indicated the speeds on 248th are slower by far than they are on 94th, he very seldom sees anybody driving 35 on 248th. The physical conditions on 248th don't lend themselves to that kind of speed. Dunn indicated that there's vertical undulation in 94th, when he backs out of his driveway a car about 100 yards to the south is practically invisible to him, particularly if it's a small car. Dunn indicated that he had a guy yell and threaten him because he slowed down to turn into his driveway. Dunn indicated that he feels there is alot of skepticism and invited anyone to come out any day. Chief Angelo indicated that he absolutely believed him because he has picked people up off that road, so he doesn't doubt him in the least. 3 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 Dunn stated if there were any doubts, he invited anyone to give him a speed up to 50 miles per hour and they'd find that speed anytime, any hour of the day or if you want above 50 miles per hour, come by about 4:30. Leona Orr indicated that she could tell from personal experience as she drives that street occasionally and Dunn is not telling anything that is not true. Orr. indicated that she sympathizes with Dunn about trying to turn into his driveway because she has the same problem on 248th. To turn into your driveway it is an, absolute nightmare when a car is barrelling down behind you. Dunn indicated that he has visited many other vibrant communities and `travelled all over the country the last six years and he hasn't seen any place anywhere, even in Los Angeles, where the congestion is any worse and feels that something has got to be done. Dunn indicated that something has to be done on an interim basis on 94th, they either want to have some stop signs at 248th, or a three-way stop. Dunn indicated that Sgt. Brian Jones had told him that he had requested that the City put a three-way stop at 246th, which is on the north side of the LDS Church, because of the restricted sight distance on that corner. Dunn stated that 248th is a real dangerous intersection and he believes, that there should be a three-way stop there. Dunn indicated there's a proposed development on the east side of 94th between 241st and 242nd and he would like to ask that a three-way stop be considered at what would be 242nd, which would slow down traffic. There's a proposed development in there and the reason was to ask that a three-way stop be considered at what would be 242nd, which would slow down the traffic. Dunn brought to the attention of the Committee an article which appeared in the Kent News Journal regarding a street in Renton which has basically the same problem and they are going to put in speed bumps to try to slow down the traffic. They had opted for speed bumps rather than stop signs. Dunn stated he felt that putting in stop signs is a positive correction. Dunn stated that he doesn't know enough about speed bumps, but indicated that he knew the Fire Department would not want them. Angelo stated he was right, reason being, it slows down emergency response. Stops signs are a little easier to give warning on. Dunn indicated that in Arkansas they just simply say if you abuse you lose, if you abuse the speed limit you lose the privilege of driving your car. Instead of fining you, you park your car in a City parking lot for a number of days. Dowell asked if the main problem is too much speed on 94th. Dunn stated yes, it's not the number of cars, it's the speed. Dowell indicated that on the list of citations and warnings it shows approximately 2 to 3 per hour and that' s when they catch them. Dunn stated yes, but that' s also giving the speeder the benefit of 15 miles per hour. Dowell asked how many speed signs there are between -James Street and Canyon Drive. Lt. Everett indicated that there is one each direction, one at about 248th for the southbound traffic and one just past Dunn' s front yard for the northbound traffic. Dunn indicated that you could also paint the speed limit on the street, which is what he did when 4 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 he was in Oregon County. Dowell asked where the majority of traffic is coming from. Lt. Everett indicated that early in the morning and up until about 1: 00 p.m. , the majority of the traffic on James is westbound so for a left hand during those hours, it's not too hazardous and it's not too unusual to see it happen. But in the afternoon from about 2 : 30 on, most of it's eastbound and they're cutting through and then going up 248th to go east. Dowell stated they don't actually live on 94th, they just want to miss the traffic. Dunn stated yes, it's a bypass. Dowell questioned if 248th is where they're heading for and Everett stated yes, more than likely. Dennis Byerly indicated that 248th is a bypass for both coming into the city and for exiting, everybody is searching out those ways with the least resistance. Dunn stated yes, and you can't fault them for that, but he just wants the speed reduced. Dowell indicated that the light on 94th is set so that it is timed so that when that light is approached on 94th from the south, it clicks it automatically, so those people can go tearing right through there. Dunn indicated that the loop is close to the intersection so they can't speed into the intersection, but if it's green, he's seen two of them go through the red because it's impossible for them to stop at the speeds they're going. Dowell asked if some no left turns would help. Nizlek indicated that that would be taking traffic away and this isn't a matter of traffic volume, it's the speed. Dowell asked if some new signs would help. Dunn indicated that the one on his corner should be lowered so it can be seen. Dunn stated that he felt the only positive recommendation, and he hoped that the City would listen is to put up some stop signs. Angelo stated it's not so much seeing the speed limit, it's a matter of whether they're going to obey the speed limit or not. With respect to the stop signs, Angelo indicated that they would be better than speed bumps, but in either case it would depend more on lights and sirens to get there, but would have to refer to• Engineering to know what the overall impacts would be on the flow. Nizlek indicated that before a decision were made to put in stop signs, he would want to take a closer look at it, if there were undulations where they'd be putting their brakes on and the car coming over the hill couldn't see that the brakes were on and didn't expect a stop sign, there could be rear end accident problems. Dunn indicated that in this particular instance, that wouldn't be the case unless you put ,one at 241st. At 242nd you wouldn't have the sight distance problem or visibility problem by putting one there when and if that street is ever developed. Dunn thinks that the requirements are at 248th now if you wanted to go to a traffic analysis. Nizlek indicated that he did do an all-way stop very briefly at 248th, but the problem was the speeds coming off of Canyon heading down 94th. If two came and one of them didn't notice the stop sign, they would have had a rear end problem right there. Dunn indicated that you would have to put up enough warning, maybe a warning light. Dunn stated they've got to be slowed down some way before they get to 248th and if they're 5 `E MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH5, 1990 slowed down at 248th and then at 246th they probably wouldn't be able to get more than 50 miles per hour before they got to his house. Dowell questioned if the problem was from those coming down the hill, down Canyon Drive and onto 94th. Dowell asked if there is anything there in that area that could be slowing. Dunn indicated that there are alot of things that could _be done, but he stated that they do need some real severe and positive control and that's what they're here for. Dunn indicated that they do want positive control, they've lived with it long enough and he feels it's time that something positive is done. Dowell asked Dunn if they could have Marty Nizlek study the situation and come up with some thoughts on how that can be improved. Dowell asked about sidewalks. Dunn indicated that at one time he had tried to get an LID started, but because most of the property was vacant, they couldn't. Dunn indicated that even an asphalt sidewalk on the west side would be great, there is a fairly deep drainage ditch and a limited right-of-way on the east side that would preclude it. Mann also asked Marty Nizlek also consider painting the speed limit on the street itself and let the Committee know if there is a problem with that with constant use and driving over it. Dowell asked of there were anyway to check the citations to see where they're coming from. Byerly indicated that you could look at the address, but that would only tell you where they're going home. Leona Orr asked if she was correctly understanding that they are only citing people that are going 40 miles per hour and above. Dunn indicated that was what the officer had told him. Orr asked why they would not stop them at 30 and 35. Everett indicated that the reason that they're doing 15 miles per hour and over the speed limit at that location is because when they're out writing you a ticket for between 7 and 10 miles per hour, the 15 and 20 's are going by. To get the quality of enforcement, they are going after the 15 plus miles per hour. Orr indicated that if you've got that many going over 15, that means there might be twice as many going at 30, 35, 37, etc. Dunn indicated as he said in his opening statement, the average speed is in excess of 40 miles per hour. Orr asked what happens when they get a citation, what does it cost them. Everett indicated that it varies, depending on how fast you're going and what the speed limit is. In that area, 10 over the limit is $47. 00. Orr asked if most of them have to pay or do they get out of it somehow. Everett indicated that it' s an infraction, so it' s not a required court appearance, you can mail in the fine or you can go through a contestment hearing. Everett indicated that through his own personal experience up there with enforcement, the people that are up there driving know they're going too fast and they realize it about 35 seconds after they get into the radar zone and they're all apologetic. He has never had it contested and he knows that very few of the officers that have given citations up there have had it contested. Captain Miller indicated that apparently a large majority of them say that's the risk that goes with taking this route as a shortcut. Nizlek indicated that he 6 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 would like to see where they live though because he thinks you'll find that many of them come down Canyon and shoot. right through there and you're going 40 or 45 coming down Canyon and it's very easy to just maintain 35 or 40 as you go through the, neighborhood. Angelo indicated that having the opportunity to drive that every day, he doesn't think it's just Smith or Canyon, they're coming up James, 248th, when they're going home they're making that left turn. Angelo indicated that when he goes home, it much easier to go down and go up 248th than it is to wait and be patient. When he's coming down in the morning they're coming down 248th and heading right and heading left, coming back across, coming across from the other side of 94th, trying to find the best way to get through the frustration of Kent and when they do they take all their pent up frustrations and you see them taking ,extra chances. Dunn indicated there is something else also, which he has experienced first hand, at 248th and 94th there wera two different accidents which occurred and he was right behind the cars involved and he witnessed it. He got out to see if he could be of help as a witness, .but they said let's not report this because it will go on our driving records, we can take care of it_ through our insurance. They both agreed and got in their cars ,and drove off. Everett indicated that they don't realize is that once it is reported to the insurance company, it goes on their ,driving record any. Jack Boughton indicated that with the new homes that are going in and they're all coming from that one spot, he feels that the planning that should be considered. Boughton indicated that to get out of his drive he just backs in and rips out when he wants to go, he has to go out forward or he'll never make it. Boughton questioned why Morford couldn't exit on Summit and go the back way. Dunn indicated that getting across if they were ,going west on James, there's going to be accident. He's seen two cars already come together in the alleyway. Everett asked where this was located. Dowell indicated just one block on 94th just south of James, it's one little street going down in there that's blocked off at the other end. Dunn questioned the 'access. Angelo indicated that he gave input on this and the decisions came down. All he could say is that he understands what they're saying and what the concern is. Dowell indicated that it is not a City street and Angelo indicated that that was basis upon which it was granted he believed. Mann asked Dunn about the meeting treat he had with Sgt. Brian Jones and was he satisfied with time in that area. Dunn indicated that he had worked in municipal budge-to, and he knows enough to know that you couldn't spend enough time! there, you couldn't hire enough police officers to be there, often enough to satisfy him or-either one of his neighbors, but they,mre doing the best job they can and he believes that they're getting as good of a response as could be expected and he can't fault that at all. It just isn't enough, but he doesn't believe there's enough people to put out there often enough to do the job. Dunn .indicated that the problem can't be logically solved or resolved by enforcement, 7 If MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 unless you've got three officers you can put there 24 hours a day. Nizlek indicated that the problem with putting in stop signs for example, is that they will violate the stop signs. Dunn indicated that he has gone through that argument with many communities. Dunn indicated that you can run the stop signs, but the only time they run it is when there's a chance to run it. If there's a chance of a conflict, they stop. Dunn indicated this is the historical evidence that he collected throughout the City of Seattle and the major communities of the State of Washington in 1976. Dunn stated that if you go out to 248th and 116th where there is a four-way stop, you can watch and people did run it, but they didn't do it when there was another car coming or even close. Orr indicated that they don't run it at 30 miles either, they do roll through it but it's just rolling because they know the potential is there for other cars. Mann indicated that now that Nizlek had the intent, they would like to see an engineering study done on the area and some suggestions brought back for the Council. Walt Susan asked to say a few words, indicating that he lives on the corner of 94th and south 240th and he had a fire hydrant knocked out there in December and there have been a lot of problems. Alot of automobiles run in there especially when it snows and hit the fire hydrant. They have put a new one in and he was after them to put several posts there to protect the hydrant, but whoever was in charge said it wouldn't do any good, so they poured some concrete in there. When they poured the concrete instead of sloping it out to the street they sloped it into his yard and he has an erosion problem with his yard now. He spoke with the Water Department and asked if they could fix it a little, so they put in some piling and leveled it up a little bit. Susan indicated that it is a pretty dangerous` corner. He has been there 17 years and there is a slope as you come down James and turn left onto 94th and the cars want to go right towards his yard. They've had several cars end up right in his lawn and next door. Susan asked for some study on it and thought that maybe they could put in a guard rail in around the corner. The Baker's, who live across the street, have children who go to Kent Junior High and they're afraid to let the children walk on that corner. Susan again asked for some consideration to put in something to protect that corner and to give them some protection. Angelo indicated that he had been at one of the incidents and the fact that the car didn't go into Mr. Susan's house was a minor miracle. Susan indicated that the hydrant helped to stop the car too. Susan indicated that if a guard rail were put in there it would help with the pedestrian traffic. He indicated that he has got it level, he outs the grass and tries to keep it up so it looks decent for people can walk there, but everybody is a little bit leery to walk on that corner. Byerly indicated that it has been his experience that you can put stop signs and all of the things that you'd like too, and you're still going to have a certain amount of increasing traffic and a finite amount of roads. One of the bigger issues that it going on is trying to put in some 8 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 sort of an arterial to handle the traffic from east; to west on 277th. Byerly indicated that the bigger issue is trying to get traffic from downtown to the east and until there is something done having to do with arterials, there will be an increasing amount of traffic in these areas, so perhaps maybe we need to think about this on a more regional issue or bigger picture. Byerly indicated that anything that is done in that neighborhood will have a ripple effect on the rest of the neighborhoods. . Byerly also indicated that one last thing is that you could probably go to any area of this community and probably have the same problem, people coming in and talking about these same issues. Byerly ,indicated that he was not trying take away from what was being said, but arterials are needed to move the traffic from the downtown, the valley freeway out into the east, ' in east-west routes. Dunn indicated that he understood what Byerly was saying, but he had one thing to say in rebuttal of that. It is not the volumes on 94th that he's concerned about, indicating that you could triple the ,volumes and it still wouldn't make that much difference to them, it's the speeds they're concerned with. Dunn indicated that there is not any congestion on 94th, it's the speeds as a result of no congestion. Byerly indicated that what he is addressing is the frustration level of the drivers. Dunn indicated he understood that and that's not only here, it's in every community in the United States. Mann indicated that there is need with regard to volume concerning stop signs, indicating that there are rules that the State has set, guidelines for putting in stop signs and as far as volume goes, that will be important to consider. Dunn indicated that he understood that, but there is also a safety concern too, it isn't related strictly to volumes. Nizlek indicated that he would check all those out in the study. Mann advised Dunn that they would keep him posted. Dunn thanked the Committee for listening to his concerns. Nizlek indicated that he would try to come back in two weeks, but it may be as much as a month before they get all the information together. They. will have to do volumes and speeds and see where the citations are coming from as well. Mann asked Kelli Rogers to keep Mr. Dunn infoxtied as to when this would be coming back so that he can attsnd:, t4e meeting. Nizlek again apologized for not having the map as ;it' would have helped to have it to talk to. Nizlek also indicated that he could have a video tape taken of it. Dowell indicated than other than James, Canyon and 248th, there's no other way to get down the hill. Nizlek indicated that's why there is a circulation problem. It's acting as a collector street or an arterial bypass a3id it may only have collector volumes, but it's an arterial cut through really. Angelo again indicated everybody in town knows the short cuts and that's one of them. Orr indicated that once the light went in at the Benson and 248th, it became the ideal street to get through. When the light wasn't there, nobody drove on that street because nobody wanted to try and cross Benson. Orr indicated that she drives that area all the time and it's wild. Everett advised the 9 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 Committee that what they try to do with enforcement up there and especially on Fridays on the 4/3 overlap days, they'll put three or four motorcycles together and they' ll spend 2 hours on 94th and they'll spend 2 ,hours at 700 block of James, they'll spend 1 1/2 or 2 hours on Canyon Drive somewhere, which they call a wolfpack. If you don't have your driver's license with you, even if you own one, it's too bad, if you don't have your registration, your insurance papers, they write everything. They idea is that they put a fear of apprehension in the drivers. Just like what was stated before, they were out there on Friday working and it' s now been real good for this week, and they will be out there again at a date that hasn't been determined yet. Orr indicated that she can always tell when they've been on 248th because everything gets really nice for a while, but then it starts picking back up. Everett indicated that the reason they pack up like that is because they can contact more people that way. Orr asked where they money goes from the tickets. Driscoll indicated that the City only gets a small percentage of them. Everett indicated that just as a point of information, the Traffic Unit almost paid it's way last. He wasn't exactly sure of the figures, but thought they generated about $960, 000 and they have about a $1. 1 million budget. Nizlek indicated that another thing that he did not remember to suggest to Mr. Dunn was that he could be provided with a radar gun to collect speed information and if they record the license plate, a letter could be sent out indicating that they their vehicle, license plate # , was noted speeding and the speed on this street section, would you please recognize this as a residential area. Angelo indicated that Mr. Dunn might be leery about getting his windows shot out again though. DISRUPTION OF GOVERNMENT OFFICES Sandra Driscoll indicated that basically what is being proposed is new ordinance in the Kent City code which is called Disruption of Government Offices, basically to, fill in the gap that there is when individuals come into the City, causes substantial disruption and whatever lawful reason they are there for is concluded and yet their activities don't rise to the extent to falling under the harassment laws and other laws by which the officers could cite the individual and require the individual to remove himself or herself from the premises. This is an ordinance drafted to try and pick up those situations that create potential safety concerns for City employees, cause substantial disruption to the activities in the City and the police officers could then respond and cite the individual. briscoll indicated that this has been generated because of a particular individual causing some substantial problems in the Administration and Law Department, however, they also became aware of the fact that there is gap in the laws and wanted to bring it to the Committee for approval have it put on the consent calendar for March 20th. Dowell asked who authored it and 10 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 Driscoll indicated that she had. Dowell asked what brought it to her attention. Driscoll indicated that it was a series of incidents with a particular individual who came into the Administration and had wanted to see the Mayor. Because of some things in his background there were concerns about safety of the individuals involved. More than once the police department had to respond because the individual was shouting and there,were concerns for the actual safety of the employees, but didn!,t make enough direct threats to fall under harassment laws. Dowell indicated that the only thing that he saw was a real gray area and asked would it ever stand up. Driscoll indicated they don't know, but the City of Auburn has a similar ordinance and they have not had it tested. Driscoll indicated that they did enough research to use the words lawful authority or without lawful reason, the courts have defined that. The word intentional is In, there and substantial disruptions. Dowell indicated that in effect, if a person came into City Hall with a protest sign, under that ordinance you could fine them $5, 000. 00 and he asked if there was a jail sentence with it. Driscoll indicated that there is the potential. Driscoll indicated that the $5, 000. 00 fine and jail is the standard misdemeanor. Dowell indicated that he could see how the thing could be abused and it's such a gray constitutional area, he really wonders if it's needed. Dowell indicated that as long as this person that came in and caused this particular problem was handled, then why do we need more laws, more ordinances. Everett indicated that this problem is on-going. Miller i,n4i:cated that it is increasing in it's severity and it's regularity. Dowell indicated that he thought this person had been taken care of. Driscoll indicated that actually it is administrative staff that are taking care of this individual and in this case, secretaries, and it's not really their job to try and manage someone who is threatening certain individuals within City government. It's a very difficult and tense situation. Dowell asked if that wouldn't be reason enough for the police to escort this gentleman out. Miller indicated that these are misdemeanors that ar® occurring not in police presence, which is part of the problem. The other part of the problem is that it is increasing in sevpri.ty and the agitation level is getting worse. The response time from the P.D. is as good as it's ever going to get, but that doesn't mean that we're not going to have a physical incident occur- before the police can actually get there. This is what they are -trying to get around, to keep a physical incident from happening by having something in place that he can be well notified in advance that it does not have . to get physical for the police to take action. Dowell again expressed his concern about it being a real gray area. Driscoll indicated that a judge is going to look at this very clearly and that why they put in without lawful reason, because there are first amendment concerns always when someone comes into City Hall. They're trying to make it real clear that they don't have an intent to just do a broad sweep when they decide they don't 11 MINUTES FROM PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE MEETING MARCH 5, 1990 like the color of someone' s hair or whatever, they can't be in City Hall. Dowell asked if they didn't already have that, if somebody comes in here to disrupt and threaten, can't you take some action. Driscoll indicated no. Miller indicated that there is enough vagueness in the way the other saws are written that puts them in a kind of catch 22 . This ordinance wants by it's language to clarify and gives a little more workable tool. Dowell indicated again that it is running on that edge on the gray area, the balance. Miller indicated that they would also be on that gray edge of balance if they try to manipulate the existing statutes to fit as a correction for what is occurring. Until it gets to that point where they step over that boundary and are now physical, or they step over that boundary and have now taken a very overt act that is covered by the existing statutes, that's the problem and they're trying to keep something from occurring that they see that is probably going to occur, at least in this particular individual. This is not drafted specifically for, but it's the catalyst for this particular ordinance. Dowell indicated that this ordinance isn't going to stop him and stated that he feels that it may stop, if not used correctly, some very constitutionally approved protests. Miller indicated that it's not intended to keep someone from documenting complaints or voicing complaints, what it' s saying is once they've had their opportunity to do that and we've had the opportunity to document the fact that they have Ia legitimate complaint, that should be the end of it and not allow them to continue their location and disruption. We're not trying to keep anybody from doing something that they have a right to do, but when it' s over and done with, let us get on with business and that is what this ordinance is intended to do. Dowell indicated that he knew that balance and it's a tough balance. He would hate to see it used against citizens with protests and it could be, as he sees it, if that were the deciding element of the person in charge. Miller indicated that he understood Dowell 's concerns and wished there were a better way to address it, but he also feels that the concern the ordinance in intended to correct is a very valid and serious concern. Miller indicated that he is very concerned that they are going to have some injured employees. Everett indicated that the problem we're faced with here is that alot of the things that you could use out in the private sector don't work here such as criminal trespass, but because we are who we are government wise, we can't preclude him from access to the building. Orr moved to place on consent calendar for March 20th. Dowell seconded the motion. Passed unanimously. Meeting adjourned. A 12